Comments on: Is the United States mentioned in the Bible?

By: About Mormons: Mormon Scriptures | AboutMormons

About Mormons: Mormon Scriptures | AboutMormons — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 16:01:57 +0000

[…] Is the United States mentioned in the Bible? […]

By: Oak Norton

Oak Norton — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:36:57 +0000

(sorry for the length 🙂 but I didn’t see how to shorten it)
Excellent work Jason. I’m glad you took the opportunity to dig in and do some research. It’s always a good experience to really dig into the scriptures having a purpose for which you’re studying rather than just reading along.
One thing I’d like to toss out is the notion that prophesy through symbolism doesn’t always pin itself to actual objects in the way we view them. Consider Isaiah trying to describe modern day events and talking of horses, scorpions, and locusts as an illustration of modern day mechanized combat vehicles. The Savior taught in parables in order to conceal higher truths from spiritual babes and protect them from being condemned for not understanding those teachings (Matt 13:10). This particular prophesy to Joseph, if it had been completely straight forward at the time such as “your descendants will journey over the ocean and populate another land” might have caused Joseph to live his life in such a way that he would have sought to become a shipbuilder and live by the ocean instead of waiting for God to fulfill that prophecy. I’m just saying that sometimes God makes the message a little obscure in order to fulfill things in His own time and way and then when it is fulfilled, we can look back and recognize that the prophet who declared those things was very much in tune with God. God fulfills His word. Prophets also sometimes declared things with dual meanings. Isaiah is full of this. His prophesies related both to the events of his day as well as events in our day. Prophetic parallelism.
On to your points. The passage in Genesis 49 is clearly symbolic. A prophet is declaring a prophesy on the head of his son and telling him he is a “fruitful bough.” As you pointed out, this is about prospering, growing, and expanding. The word for “well” in this verse means “an eye (literal or figurative) by analogy. (as the eye of the landscape)” among other definitions. Certainly Joseph came to prosper and be very well regarded in Egypt, and I can certainly see a fulfillment through his time in Egypt. Years later, his descendants did cross through the red sea which could easily be seen as the well and wall. I would suggest, however, that there was a future fulfillment in store as well, with regard to the everlasting hills. This could be an example of parallel prophesies, seeing a fulfillment in Joseph’s life as well as that of his descendants.
On your second point regarding the “everlasting” hills, I looked up the Hebrew word used in this verse in Strong’s concordance and there are several definitions, one of which is “perpetual” and “continuous.” This can have the implication as you describe which is essentially eternal, but on the other hand the word could also be used to describe something that is continuous. Consider these two physical maps I just found online. The mountains of the Americas go from Alaska down to the Southern tip of South America. These are perpetual, continuous hills.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/physical-map/north-america.htm
http://www.mapsofworld.com/physical-map/south-america.htm
Also consider this. In Habakkuk 3:6, as the prophet prays he says this: “He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.”
In the LDS faith, we believe the Americas fulfill God’s covenant with Joseph. The Book of Mormon itself claims to be the record of Joseph’s descendants. We believe it fulfills the prophesy in Ezekiel 37 about the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph coming together. To my knowledge there is nothing else in the world that even claims to fulfill that prophesy.
One other prophesy which I didn’t mention in the article but have in another article, is this statement by Christ where he told his disciples “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Some will say this was a reference to the gentiles, but Christ never went to them and when the gentile woman came to him he replied, “… I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt 15:24). In other words, he was with the tribe of Judah in Jerusalem, and he was sent only to the tribes of Israel (which weren’t all present in the area of his ministry). Peter’s later vision opened the way for the apostles to take the gospel to the gentiles.
The Book of Mormon contains this record at the time Jesus visited this continent shortly after his resurrection.
*****
3 Nephi 15
11 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen:
12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.
13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice-that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
*****
Jason, either the Book of Mormon is true or it isn’t. I would encourage you to read a copy of it for yourself and ask God in sincerity if it is true. The book isn’t the production of a 14 year old farm boy with a 3 year education. That much is obvious. 🙂 So the book is either the work of God or the work of the devil. Joseph was either a modern day prophet of God, or the devil. If the book teaches the gospel of Christ, it’s not from the devil. I encourage you to study it out for yourself.
Whether or not we agree, I am happy to attempt to answer any more questions if you’d like to post them.

By: jason

jason — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:04:44 +0000

Hi Oak, I wanted to post this here as well as your fb in case anyone had something to add. It would help if your posted your response and references from our fb thread also, but I didnt want to take that liberty for you. Thanks
Oak
What a great exercise to spend several days researching just one part of one chapter of the Bible! It’s amazing to see how God’s Word remains congruent and verifiable from Genesis through Revelations. I have tried diligently to find the connections you proposed between Genesis 49 and the American continent, but I’m just not seeing it. Here are just a few of the more salient points. Whenever I reference a word or term, I mean literally the original Hebrew as well as its English translation. I don’t know how to type in the Hebrew words on my keyboard, but I would be happy to supply them if needed;

1: Gen. 49:22 (Fruitful bough) is used almost 5000 times in the O.T. (fruitful bough by a well) always used to indicate a person or people situated fortuitously in a place where they can prosper, grow, or expand. The word “well” in this context is never used to represent an ocean or sea. The usage of the Hebrew word for “wall” in this verse occurs only in one other place and that is 2 Sam. 22:30 in King David’s “psalm of deliverance” where he praises God for delivering him from the hands of his enemies. This word and its more frequently used variations, indicate the designs and schemes of an enemy or oppressor i.e. the Israelite (including the branches of Joseph) bondage in Egypt. It may be difficult for a desert people to cross an ocean, but it is impossible for any people to cross the Red Sea on dry ground by their own efforts. God is faithful to fulfill his promises, and He delivered His chosen people in a mighty way so that all would know His power.

2: Gen. 49:26 The Hebrew word for (everlasting) is used sixty times in the O.T. and often with (hills) but even more often in reference to God. (Everlasting) indicates the “vanishing point of time” usually past but often extending to future i.e. eternal or everlasting to everlasting, without beginning and without end. This word is always used in reference to time and never to indicate a physical expanse, thus can not refer to a mountain range extending from one end of a continent to another. Psalms 90:2 is a great example as it mentions both mountains and The Everlasting God. The Hebrew word for (separate) as in “separate from his brethren” indicates “set apart” “consecrated to God” “a Nazarite (by a false transliteration with Nazareth)” “distinguished among others” i.e. a Nazarite, priest, sometimes prince or ruler. The Hebrew word for (separate) never indicates “across the room, across town, or across the ocean”. It is interesting that the only other instance of that specific Hebrew word is in Duet. 33. We find Moses blessing the people prior to his death, and the Israelites entering the Promised Land of Canaan. Notice that Moses had just “separated” Joshua to lead the Israelites and consummate God’s promise to deliver “the land flowing with milk and honey” to His chosen people. Keep in mind that Joshua is “of the branch of Joseph”, as was Samuel who was also “separate” from his brothers. Samuel was commanded by God to “separate” Saul and David, fulfilling God’s promise to give his people a King.

I’m still working on the other passages you mentioned, but wanted to commit some of my thoughts to writing.

By: Oak Norton

Oak Norton — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:55:41 +0000

My friend Jason and I started a conversation on Facebook and agreed to move it here. The first couple posts were such that they don’t need posted but Jason asked if this was “official” LDS doctrine and sought some references. This was my response, followed by his.
***
Jason, I’m going to assume you meant the Genesis 49 reference that you would like a reference for. Here’s one statement which President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in the Improvement Era (church periodical) years ago.
“There is strong presumptive evidence in the blessings given by Israel to his son Joseph, and his grandsons Ephraim and Manasseh, as recorded in Genesis, that they were to inherit a land far from Jerusalem and become a multitude of nations. Joseph was promised that his inheritance should be to the “utmost bounds of the everlasting hills”; (Gen. 49:26) that he was “a fruitful bough by a well whose branches run over the wall.” (Gen. 49:22) Moreover, he was to receive a greater inheritance than his progenitors, who were given the land of Palestine.
The Book of Mormon is the record of the descendants of Joseph who were led across the “great waters” to inherit this western land, which is designated as being choice above all other lands. Surely these blessings could not be realized in Palestine. Joseph and his sons did not become a multitude of nations there; the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh did not receive a more wonderful inheritance in Palestine than any other of the tribes of Israel. There the chief honors were conferred first on Benjamin and then on Judah. Here in America all these promises were fulfilled when the descendants of Joseph possessed the land given as their inheritance.
There are many references in the Bible to Zion, a land, or place, separate and distinct from Jerusalem. Such passages are found in the second chapter of Isaiah and the fourth chapter of Micah. It would be foolish to say that these references to Zion were to the hill in Jerusalem where David dwelt. Through modern revelation the Lord has made it known that the American continent is Zion. It is to be on this land that the city Zion, the New Jerusalem, shall be built. These predictions are clearly stated in the Book of Mormon and are in perfect accord with the writings of the Bible.”

Then there is this fascinating parallel. This first link goes to Joseph Smith’s history. Scroll down to read verses 55-65:
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
Then click this next link to go to Isaiah 29 and scroll down and read verses 10-14. You can certainly read more, but we believe the account of Martin Harris dealing with Professor Anthon was prophesied in these verses and that Joseph was specifically identified as well as the one who was not learned who would do the marvelous work mentioned in verse 14.
http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/29?lang=eng
Let me know if you have other questions. I’m working on part 2 to the article as well.